Previous Thread | Next Thread |
Print Thread
Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? #93457303/02/24 09:50 AM | |
Joined: Jul 2017 gealaOP old hand | |
OP geala old hand Joined: Jul 2017 | I know the threat title contains an assertion you maybe first have to argue about. Perhaps it is not underpowered. I think it is. I'm not a DnD player, so maybe there are hidden goodies in heavy armor. In the EA of BG3 there was no good heavy armor (except perhaps later from the Grymforge) and I thought the good and strong stuff will come later. I still have to find it in Act 3. The best heavy armor seems to be the (legendary) Helldusk plate armor with 21 AC you can get from the House of Hope (I wasn't there yet). You can buy some very rare AC 20 armor for over 13,000 gold (I had the money but spent it for better stuff). The "normal" very rare heavy armor is at 19 AC. Why is the AC so low? With the best medium armor you get 17 AC and the full Dex bonus applied, that's 22 AC (with 20 Dex), and you get a whopping +2 to saving throws in addition. The second best medium armor with full Dex bonus gets you to 20 AC and grants you initiative. A simple rare +2 medium Half Plate armor with the +2 Dex bonus grants you 19 AC. BTW if you fell victim to the argument you can dip Dex with heavy armor because you don't need it as no bonus is applied, you have potentially very low initiative, a bad feature in Honour mode. Heavy armor usually reduces all received damage by 1 or 2 (and not just some special damage like medium armor), that's a good feature, but from my experience not a compensation for low AC because in the hard fights you often receive high damage pakets at once. So my question is, should better heavy armor not have 21 or 22 AC as regular number, to make it at least even or a little better to what (not hard to get) medium armor can achieve? |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? geala#93457703/02/24 11:22 AM | |
Joined: Nov 2023 T Taril enthusiast | |
Taril enthusiast T Joined: Nov 2023 | Heavy Armour is OP. Act 1 it completely sucks though, when it's just crappy 14 AC which is the same as medium armour like the Breastplate +1 or Githyanki Half Plate. But once you get Adamantite Scale and some of the later heavy armours that get that +2 (Or +3 for the Hellplate) DR it becomes super strong. +2 DR from heavy armour, +3 DR from Heavy Armour Mastery feat and Warding Bond and you take literally 0 damage from most attacks. AC is low? Who cares, hit me for 0 damage all you want. |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? geala#93457803/02/24 11:25 AM | |
Joined: Jan 2021 Street Hero member | |
Street Hero member Joined: Jan 2021 | Ask wotc. Last edited by Street Hero; 03/02/24 11:25 AM. STILL WAITING FOR NEW COMPANION AND CUSTOM PARTY WITHOUT MULTIPLAYER. |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? geala#93458303/02/24 12:34 PM | |
Joined: May 2023 B Buba68 old hand | |
Buba68 old hand B Joined: May 2023 | Heavy Armour Mastery at lower levels is awesome. One of my favourite picks at lvl 4. |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? geala#93458803/02/24 01:05 PM | |
Joined: Mar 2021 Location: Phoenix, Arizona Blackheifer veteran | |
Blackheifer veteran Joined: Mar 2021 Location: Phoenix, Arizona | Originally Posted by geala I know the threat title contains an assertion you maybe first have to argue about. Perhaps it is not underpowered. I think it is. I'm not a DnD player, so maybe there are hidden goodies in heavy armor. In the EA of BG3 there was no good heavy armor (except perhaps later from the Grymforge) and I thought the good and strong stuff will come later. I still have to find it in Act 3. The best heavy armor seems to be the (legendary) Helldusk plate armor with 21 AC you can get from the House of Hope (I wasn't there yet). You can buy some very rare AC 20 armor for over 13,000 gold (I had the money but spent it for better stuff). The "normal" very rare heavy armor is at 19 AC. Why is the AC so low? With the best medium armor you get 17 AC and the full Dex bonus applied, that's 22 AC (with 20 Dex), and you get a whopping +2 to saving throws in addition. The second best medium armor with full Dex bonus gets you to 20 AC and grants you initiative. A simple rare +2 medium Half Plate armor with the +2 Dex bonus grants you 19 AC. BTW if you fell victim to the argument you can dip Dex with heavy armor because you don't need it as no bonus is applied, you have potentially very low initiative, a bad feature in Honour mode. Heavy armor usually reduces all received damage by 1 or 2 (and not just some special damage like medium armor), that's a good feature, but from my experience not a compensation for low AC because in the hard fights you often receive high damage pakets at once. So my question is, should better heavy armor not have 21 or 22 AC as regular number, to make it at least even or a little better to what (not hard to get) medium armor can achieve? You make a great point and one I agree with. Heavy armor is pretty underwhelming in comparison to medium Armor and especially in the context of initiative. I mean, you basically have to have at least 14 Dex anyway if you want to be anywhere on the initiative table for the majority of the game - because of how Larian has done initiative in the game it gives more weight to your dex bonus than the die roll itself. You go 10 dex and the Tank is going last in the turn order every time and that's really not helpful. So heavy armor can't do anything with that extra dexterity bonus...but you need to have it anyway? Pass. Blackheifer |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? geala#93460103/02/24 04:02 PM | |
Joined: Oct 2020 D dwig addict | |
dwig addict D Joined: Oct 2020 | It seems like the issue is itemization. On the one hand you have some medium armors that grant full dex mod to armor, and on the other hand the bonuses on heavy armor are not inspiring. Full dex mod on medium armor is too strong, when you consider that it also gives initiative (as has already been pointed out). If this were reduced to granting an additional +1 or +2 to AC from dex then it would still be very strong without completely eclipsing heavy armor. At the same time they need to put some sources of full plate earlier (act 1 for sure), and make full plate +1 accessible in act 2. Alternatively they could buff the damage resistance component. -1 or -2 to damage doesn't feel like a big deal, but a -5 or -10 would be impactful enough that I wouldn't mind getting hit. |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? geala#93460303/02/24 04:14 PM | |
Joined: May 2023 B Buba68 old hand | |
Buba68 old hand B Joined: May 2023 | In Ac 1 AC 16 HA is available very early, at lvl 3, then lvl 5 unlocks AC 17 at all Good Merchants, two AC 18 in the Mountain Pass map ... |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? Buba68#93460603/02/24 04:37 PM | |
Joined: Oct 2020 D dwig addict | |
dwig addict D Joined: Oct 2020 | Originally Posted by Buba68 In Ac 1 AC 16 HA is available very early, at lvl 3, then lvl 5 unlocks AC 17 at all Good Merchants, two AC 18 in the Mountain Pass map ... That's not too bad. I may have been remembering early access when AC 16 was not available at all in the earlier patches. Full dex to medium still makes it fairly easy to surpass heavy armor if you are so inclined. With dex gloves you can do it while still dumping dex. |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? geala#93460703/02/24 04:52 PM | |
Joined: May 2023 B Buba68 old hand | |
Buba68 old hand B Joined: May 2023 | Thinking of it, the fancy Mediums should be capped at +3 DEX bonus to AC. Last edited by Buba68; 03/02/24 05:05 PM. |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? geala#93460903/02/24 05:32 PM | |
Joined: Oct 2020 D dwig addict | |
dwig addict D Joined: Oct 2020 | If you give the fancy mediums a +1 or +2 additional dex bonus then medium armor mastery should be changed to add another additional +1 (it may do that already, not sure whether its additive, or just sets the bonus to +3). +2 normal, +2 from special armor, and +1 from feat gets you to full bonus from 20 dex. I do still think heavy armor should be buffed a bit too, to compensate for the (likely) low initiative. |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? geala#93461003/02/24 05:35 PM | |
Joined: Oct 2020 D dwig addict | |
dwig addict D Joined: Oct 2020 | I actually like the restricted initiative die in BG3, because you can actually plan a build around going first. Compensating heavy armor with more tankiness instead of less would make for an interesting tradeoff. |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? geala#93461803/02/24 06:20 PM | |
Joined: Oct 2021 JandK veteran | |
JandK veteran Joined: Oct 2021 | I agree that the armor is a problem. Basically, everyone wears the same thing. So why do other sets of armor exist? All smiths should just make a handful of armor types. There should be more draw to wear each individual set of armor. I'm talking about non-magical sets of armor competing with each other. The medium armor having a full dex bonus is bad. It's so bad, in fact, that it completely negates a potential feat. (Speaking of feats, there's a similar issue. Only certain ones are good, or rather, certain ones are *so* much better than others that the others never get chosen. It's just bad design all around, and I blame DnD for that.) |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? JandK#93462703/02/24 07:20 PM | |
Joined: Nov 2023 A Anska old hand | |
Anska old hand A Joined: Nov 2023 | Originally Posted by JandK (Speaking of feats, there's a similar issue. Only certain ones are good, or rather, certain ones are *so* much better than others that the others never get chosen. It's just bad design all around, and I blame DnD for that.) Yes, and it makes you really miss out on the fun ones, especially if only get three of them. Two go into attribute improvement and the remaining one is probably going to be alert. |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? Anska#93464103/02/24 09:53 PM | |
Joined: May 2023 B Buba68 old hand | |
Buba68 old hand B Joined: May 2023 | Originally Posted by Anska Yes, and it makes you really miss out on the fun ones, especially if only get three of them. Two go into attribute improvement and the remaining one is probably going to be alert. As not to derail - I often take non ASI feats. True that from a pool of maybe 5 ... Last edited by Buba68; 03/02/24 09:55 PM. |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? Taril#94346802/06/24 03:25 AM | |
Joined: Jun 2024 L LiuBang stranger | |
LiuBang stranger L Joined: Jun 2024 | Originally Posted by Taril Heavy Armour is OP. Act 1 it completely sucks though, when it's just crappy 14 AC which is the same as medium armour like the Breastplate +1 or Githyanki Half Plate. But once you get Adamantite Scale and some of the later heavy armours that get that +2 (Or +3 for the Hellplate) DR it becomes super strong. Umm, Adamantine Scale Mail is medium armour lol. Just proving OP's point. Originally Posted by Taril +2 DR from heavy armour, +3 DR from Heavy Armour Mastery feat and Warding Bond and you take literally 0 damage from most attacks. AC is low? Who cares, hit me for 0 damage all you want. Taking 0 damage from "most attacks" doesn't matter. Who cares? Enemies that deal low enough damage that you can reduce it to 0 also have extremely low attack rolls. But there are encounters in this game, in honour mode, that aren't trivially easy. Where bosses do enough damage to one shot some characters. Or where a character gets paralyzed and takes a bunch of big hits in a row. The ultimate irony is that the best heavy armour doesn't even require heavy armour proficiency to wear. Also, I'll add that Heavy Armour Mastery is not a good feat. It might be worth taking once you've exhausted all the other good feats for a martial character, but that's never going to happen in BG3 or most official 5e adventures, because the level cap is 12. A list of feats that are better for a martial character than Heavy Armour Mastery: Finally, Warding Bond generally isn't worth casting either. So many better things for a cleric to do with a level 2 spell slot. And just to be clear, I do use heavy armour in this game. But not because it's good. It's objectively worse than light or medium armour. The point I'm trying to make is just that heavy armour should be objectively better than medium armour, but with a higher cost. DND 5e sort of has the same issue, but you are kind of forced to use heavy armour if you're a martial character without much DEX, because you take an AC penalty for having a negative DEX modifier. |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? LiuBang#94347202/06/24 05:59 AM | |
Joined: Nov 2023 T Taril enthusiast | |
Taril enthusiast T Joined: Nov 2023 | Originally Posted by LiuBang Umm, Adamantine Scale Mail is medium armour lol. Just proving OP's point. As I was referring to the Adamantine Heavy armour, imagine I wrote Splint instead of Scale Originally Posted by LiuBang Taking 0 damage from "most attacks" doesn't matter. Who cares? Enemies that deal low enough damage that you can reduce it to 0 also have extremely low attack rolls. So most enemies in the game have extremely low attack rolls? Then why even both with AC in the first place? If they have low attack rolls, they won't be hitting you even with mediocre AC... High AC is only relevant for high attack rolls. Alternatively, you can have moderate AC (Making all these low attack rolls still fail) and when they DO hit they deal 0. Originally Posted by LiuBang And damage reduction is not gonna save you in those cases, where a reduction of 5 damage is meaningless because attacks are dealing 20 damage at minimum in the first place. Yes it is, because of how damage reduction works in combination with resistances. A hit that does 20 damage? Reduced to 10 by resistance. Reduced by 5 from damage reduction. So now you're taking 5 damage from that attack. Sure, taking 75% less damage from these big attacks won't save you /s Meanwhile, these same Honour mode encounters get high attack rolls with extra modifiers so your 20+ AC still isn't making you avoid 95% of those attacks (Which also highlights the limitation of AC. No matter how high your AC is you cannot get more than 95% avoidance because nat 20 always hits. Meanwhile with DR you literally CAN get 100% damage reduced making things deal literally 0 damage to you) Not to mention spells which don't always target AC. But still get reduced by Heavy Armour's DR. Your 24 AC medium armour won't do a single thing against an attack that doesn't target your AC. Originally Posted by LiuBang Finally, Warding Bond generally isn't worth casting either. So many better things for a cleric to do with a level 2 spell slot. Warding Bond is one of Clerics most OP spells lmao. It's one of the 3 spells Clerics get that actually make Cleric worth using in this game. 50% reduced damage AND +1 on all Saves AND +1 to AC... For a single level 2 spell slot? Originally Posted by LiuBang Also, I'll add that Heavy Armour Mastery is not a good feat. Which is why you think Heavy Armour is bad. Heavy Armour shines when you stack DR along with resistances because you reduce so much damage that it competes with fully invested Dex + Yuan-ti massive AC and in many cases outperforms it (Such as against high attack rolling enemies or literally any build that can't stack Dex out the wazoo) |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? geala#94347602/06/24 09:19 AM | |
Joined: Oct 2020 Black_Elk veteran | |
Black_Elk veteran Joined: Oct 2020 | What they really need to do is introduce a magical belt that gives a bonus to initiative and AC while wearing heavy armor. Call it "The Girdle" and stick it somewhere early on, that way the tanky warrior types have something to work with before the power ups with feat selection. Ringmail at 14 isn't very imposing, (it also gives me Minthara nightmares lol), but then to get the heavy chain or splint is a chore. I wish there was an option to purchase starting equipment with just enough GP to slide into something other than scale mail and maybe a cool looking helmet or shield and then have that pair off against the cost of the cooler melee and ranged weapons. Just so there's a bit of tug of war going on there between offensive or defensive archetypes with the initial kit selection. Here's what the Adamantine Splint looks like with all the various dyes, images on the wiki https:/ How it is that not even one of those very rarest of dyes is black on black is still beyond me. Like surely someone must just be trolling our goth demographic on this one. Achieving Black Dye didn't really happen until the high middle ages, like mid 14th century when the technique was improved using Oak Apples, the gall-nuts created by wasps. Prior to that the best you could get really was like a dark blue from sea urchins (going way back to Phoenician times), or oxidizing the iron. As a pigment rather than a dye, black has been around since we learned the secret of fire from charcoal and burned bones, so maybe Bhaal could just let us paint the armor black? Oh well I agree though the heavy stuff doesn't quite feel like it's competing with the light stuff. Kind of a pattern lol |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? geala#94364705/06/24 02:27 PM | |
Joined: Aug 2023 Halycon Styxland addict | |
Halycon Styxland addict Joined: Aug 2023 | There is no girdle slot in BG3. And the point of heavy armor is that you dont need any Dexterity and later also get damage reduction. |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? geala#94371707/06/24 12:29 AM | |
Joined: Jun 2022 Location: outback nsw Ussnorway veteran | |
Ussnorway veteran Joined: Jun 2022 Location: outback nsw | in short, why = because you are doing it wrong Luke Skywalker: I don't, I don't believe it. |
Re: Why is Heavy Armor Underpowered? geala#94376752 minutes ago | |
Joined: Jan 2021 Street Hero member | |
Street Hero member Joined: Jan 2021 | Non-Heavy armord are for puss*es. STILL WAITING FOR NEW COMPANION AND CUSTOM PARTY WITHOUT MULTIPLAYER. |
Moderated by Dom_Larian, Freddo, vometia
Link Copied to Clipboard